Why Deluge wasn't chosen as default in Ubuntu

[Remco]

I asked on the Ubuntu mailing list why Transmission was chosen over Deluge, and got a few answers. You might find it useful. Basically, they want it to be simpler, ask less questions and do more automatically. Downloading with bittorrent should be as simple as downloading a file with Firefox. There's also a CPU, RAM and disk size problem.

You can read the discussion here:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubunt ... html#start

I formed a few early conclusions:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubunt ... 03266.html

* High memory usage.
* High file size.
* Obscure features that should be a plugin.
* Wizard-based configuration over sane-default.

I asked this because I'd really like Deluge to become the default bittorrent client in Ubuntu. You already made a great tool for the power user. However, Ubuntu demands it be simple enough for first-time bittorrent users, too. I guess there isn't enough time to get there before Hardy ships, but as Deluge is already more popular (according to popcon), you could very well beat Transmission in the next version.

[johnnyg]

this has already been discussed here: http://forum.deluge-torrent.org/viewtop ... 1079#p5184

[markybob]

this has already been discussed here: http://forum.deluge-torrent.org/viewtop ... 1079#p5184

furthermore, i really dont care. we're going to provide the best client that we can to our users. if the powers that be at ubuntu don't linke it, well, too bad. we're not changing our project to better fit into their project. and considering that we have more users than transmission, it seems obvious that most agree with us.
but for the sake of argument, let's break down your (their/whatever) points.

>>>High memory usage.

umm...bullshit.

>>>High file size.

what the hell? what does this even mean? the source tarball for transmission is 3.9MB, while the source tarball for deluge is 2.0MB. transmission's source is almost twice our size.

>>>Obscure features that should be a plugin.

transmission has *no* plugins; everything is built into the core. so, how can you say that more of our features should be plugins when NONE of theirs are plugins? what the hell? oh, and yeah, even with all of our plugins, we're half the size.

>>>Wizard-based configuration over sane-default.

i'll never appoligize for thinking our users have the brains to decide what's best for themselves. and which of our defaults are not sane?
you may quote me if you'd like.

[Denis Cheremisov]

1) No bullshit, When I need only in few files from the list, the resulted download, with "use full allocation", sometimes, takes more than 300Mb more for the 8Gb download - it's true. It should be fixed, and options "use full allocation" and "use compact allocation" should be eliminated as useless and unintuitive.
2) Your default upload configuration should be changed to allow more upload traffic. Now it's too small, but I discover this fact only after next month of using it - this is a very bad behavior for people using trackers with rating, as me.
3) No one will hurt, if the wizard will be used during initial start.
4) Then they talking about plugins, they mean some options should be moved to plugins, since Deluge has plugin system.

[markybob]

you're obviously an american. so am i, so this wasnt meant as an insult. it does explain certain things, though.

>>>options "use full allocation" and "use compact allocation" should be eliminated as useless and unintuitive.

not everyone has a large hd. sometimes you have to use compact allocation to be able to download what you need in the space that you have.

>>>Your default upload configuration should be changed to allow more upload traffic. Now it's too small, but I discover this fact only after next month of using it - this is a very bad behavior for people using trackers with rating, as me.

again, obviously you're not in most of the world which uses dialup or has far more limited dsl/cable. we have to keep every user in mind.

>>>No one will hurt, if the wizard will be used during initial start.

the wizard only runs during the initial start, so i dont know what you mean

>>>Then they talking about plugins, they mean some options should be moved to plugins, since Deluge has plugin system.

that makes even less sense when claiming this as a reason why transmission is supposedly better

[johnnyg]

Downloading with bittorrent should be as simple as downloading a file with Firefox.

that's more a complaint about the browser rather than the bittorrent client.

if you want seamless bittorrent integration within the browser - go and get yourself opera, it already does that.

edit: there's also a firefox extension which allows you to download bittorrent as well: http://www.foxtorrent.com/

[Denis Cheremisov]

not everyone has a large hd. sometimes you have to use compact allocation to be able to download what you need in the space that you have.

I meant, deluge should be able to download custom files in the case of "compact allocation", and "full allocation" should be eliminated as harmfull and useless (in Linux, since fragmentation is not a problem here. But this option can be added as plugin for Windows). Although, this is a libtorrent issue, I know

[Remco]

I hope you don't let your egos get in the way of a constructive discussion. Ubuntu is fine with Transmission at the moment. I think it's crap. Deluge can learn a few things from Transmission though.

When I said that downloading with bittorrent should be as simple as downloading with Firefox, I was referring to the fact that my mom can just start Firefox, and download a file. It Just Works. With current Deluge, my mom would have to go through a very weird wizard which asks her all these impossible questions. It's scary for my mom, so she quickly closes the application and never clicks on a torrent again.

So, I really like the fact that Transmission doesn't ask anything in a wizard. Any port business is transparent to the user: it just picks a random port in the high region, and tries to open it with NAT traversal. Then in the options there are just two regarding ports: which port to use and whether to automatically map the port. The same goes for the download location: it should just point to a sane default like ~/Downloads and not bother the user with it. If they want to change it, they will find the configuration window.

However, there are two settings that cannot have sane defaults, as far as I know: max connections and max upload. Maybe the upload could be tested by uploading a small file, but max connections has to do with the router and how soon it crashes. So a wizard with just these two options set at low defaults would be a fair minimum nag, wouldn't it?

Regarding the obscure functionality and plugins: isn't it strange that Transmission is simpler, when Deluge is supposed to have a minimal base client and a rich plugin system? On the mailing list they mentioned all the options regarding the notification area. Why not just move that functionality to a plugin? It's not like the notification is such a basic feature of torrent-use. This is just an example though. IMHO anything that requires configuration should probably be a plugin unless it's essential to the process of downloading with bittorrent. Anything that can work without configuration should probably be included. (Things like PeX, UPnP & DHT should work automatically.)

Regarding high CPU, RAM, disk size. I don't know (nor care) personally, but in the mailing list they told me they always reniced Deluge because of the CPU-usage. They saw that Deluge used slightly less RAM than the resource hog Azureus and told me that Deluge needs 13MB disk space while Transmission needs 1MB.

And the reason I think it's important to be default in Ubuntu is that the world uses Ubuntu, and therefore also uses Transmission. I'd hate Deluge to go down in history as that great client that people lost interest in because Ubuntu could handle torrents by default. That probably won't happen. I predict that, as Deluge continues to improve, even the Ubuntu-devs will eventually see it as the great client it already is, and ditch Transmission.

[mvoncken]

I think it's good deluge wasn't chosen this time.

Hardy is LTS, that's 3 years of support.
*deluge 0.5 is end-of-life.
*deluge devs have their own ideas and don't want to change something just for ubuntu , or support 0.5 for that long.
*transmission devs where active on the mailing-list and willing to adapt to ubuntu.
*I think markybob would explode when someone asks a 0.5 question on irc after 2 years


0.6 is unstable and unfinished.
But:
*uses plugins for simple things like queue, so it has the potential to be minimal.

When 0.6 is stable all your problems could be fixed by packaging.
This all depends on a dedicated simple-deluge-ubuntu packager next to the normal full-featured packages.

* High memory usage.
debatable/not addressed.

* High file size.
Separate packages for core+gtkui/webui/console-ui/plugins.
change defaults to compact allocation when packaging.

* Obscure features that should be a plugin.
don't include those plugins and put put them in a separate package.

* Wizard-based configuration over sane-default.
change packaging so defaults are the way Ubuntu likes them.
change packaging so the wizard does not start on first run.
edit: imho a torrent client needs manual config for optimal up/down speed.

[andar]

I think it's good deluge wasn't chosen this time.

Hardy is LTS, that's 3 years of support.
*deluge 0.5 is end-of-life.
*deluge devs have their own ideas and don't want to change something just for ubuntu , or support 0.5 for that long.
*transmission devs where active on the mailing-list and willing to adapt to ubuntu.
*I think markybob would explode when someone asks a 0.5 question on irc after 2 years


0.6 is unstable and unfinished.
But:
*uses plugins for simple things like queue, so it has the potential to be minimal.

When 0.6 is stable all your problems could be fixed by packaging.
This all depends on a dedicated simple-deluge-ubuntu packager next to the normal full-featured packages.

* High memory usage.
debatable/not addressed.

* High file size.
Separate packages for core+gtkui/webui/console-ui/plugins.
change defaults to compact allocation when packaging.

* Obscure features that should be a plugin.
don't include those plugins and put put them in a separate package.

* Wizard-based configuration over sane-default.
change packaging so defaults are the way Ubuntu likes them.
change packaging so the wizard does not start on first run.
edit: imho a torrent client needs manual config for optimal up/down speed.

In the end, we would need someone motivated from the Ubuntu side to maintain a package patch to keep Deluge 'Ubuntu-ized'. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu and neither do we.

That being said, this discussion has brought some interesting things to light regarding default settings and preferences as a whole. I will keep this in mind going forward with 0.6 and will work to make our preferences less complex. But, like mvoncken said, there is a need for at least some manual configuration to get the most out of a torrent client.